Creative cast: Music industry roles – Prof. Philip McIntyre
In this episode, Creative Arts Curriculum Advisor John Gill is joined by Professor Philip McIntyre to explore what it means to be a manager in the music industry. Philip has had an extensive career as a songwriter, musician, record producer, video maker, and audio engineer. He currently works as a communication and media scholar in the School of Humanities, Creative Industries, and Social Sciences at the University of Newcastle.
The Backstage pass unit will be published on the Department’s Music 7-10 website in 2026.
Join the statewide staffroom to stay up to date with our latest releases.
Transcript
The following podcast is brought to you by the Creative Arts team
Speaker:from Secondary Curriculum, the Curriculum Directorate of the New
Speaker:South Wales Department of Education.
Speaker:The Creative Arts Curriculum team recognises the Ongoing Custodians of
Speaker:the lands and waterways where we work and live here on Darug country and on
Speaker:all the lands on which you are listening today, we pay respects to Elders past
Speaker:and present as ongoing teachers of knowledge, songlines and stories.
Speaker:We strive to ensure every Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander learner
Speaker:in New South Wales achieves their potential through education.
Speaker:Welcome to Creative Cast, the official podcast of the New South Wales
Speaker:Department of Education's Creative Arts Secondary Curriculum team.
Speaker:My name is John Gill, and I'm a Creative Arts Curriculum advisor
Speaker:and Music Subject Matter Expert.
Speaker:Today I am speaking with Professor Philip McIntyre from the University of Newcastle.
Speaker:Philip is a communication and media scholar in the School of Humanities,
Speaker:Creative Industries, and Social Sciences.
Speaker:In addition to his academic and research work, he's a songwriter, musician, record
Speaker:producer, video maker, and audio engineer.
Speaker:Philip brings extensive knowledge in creativity, Innovation and
Speaker:project management as well as his understanding of industry collaboration.
Speaker:He'll be sharing insights from his work as a manager within the music industry.
Speaker:Thanks so much for joining me for the podcast today.
Speaker:Philip, can I start by asking, can you tell me a little about yourself and how
Speaker:you got started in the music industry?
Speaker:I grew up in a musical family.
Speaker:From you know day one, we were all singing around the piano.
Speaker:My auntie, my grandmother, my uncles were involved in music in all sorts of ways.
Speaker:So it was just a natural thing.
Speaker:I'll put this in inverted commas, "built my first guitar when I was 12", and
Speaker:I've just been passionate about it.
Speaker:So, it's just a natural thing for me to be doing and as I started, I did
Speaker:my first official gig at 17, and I kid myself that I haven't stopped yet.
Speaker:But all the way through that process I've been learning, you know, basically
Speaker:various aspects of it and that description you gave earlier is just
Speaker:some of the things that I've done.
Speaker:That's great.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:It's great to see that that journey started early for you
Speaker:as well and the influence of the people that you were surrounded by
Speaker:sparking that interest in music.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:I think that's essential that, that you're passionate about
Speaker:whatever you're involved in.
Speaker:Can you briefly describe your role and what interested you in this career path?
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I'll specifically talk about management.
Speaker:What interested me was the music first.
Speaker:I think if you're gonna be a manager, then you need to actually really
Speaker:appreciate and be passionate about the music and the musicians that you're
Speaker:dealing with, that you are looking after because it is a service role.
Speaker:It's also a leadership role.
Speaker:So, getting started in management is really just finding the people
Speaker:that you enjoy working with, but specifically enjoying their music.
Speaker:I think that's a crucial part of it.
Speaker:Before I actually went into managing a specific band that I
Speaker:actually looked after, I was doing that for my own bands anyway.
Speaker:I was booking gigs, I was writing songs, doing all that sort of stuff.
Speaker:I guess getting the first gig's easy, getting the second one's hard.
Speaker:So building that connection, knowing that you have a
Speaker:professional approach to everything.
Speaker:That's right.
Speaker:And I think there's 3 parts to it that I think is important for people to realise.
Speaker:One is the performance side of things, and the second is
Speaker:the recording side of things.
Speaker:And the third is, I think particularly bands only really exist in the
Speaker:media, whatever that media might be.
Speaker:Whether it's traditional legacy or social and I think you've got to convince
Speaker:bands that that's actually the case.
Speaker:This is probably a bit more specific to your role.
Speaker:How do you ensure that artists and collaborators work together safely
Speaker:and respectfully within your projects?
Speaker:While encouraging effective collaboration and communication
Speaker:to improve project outcomes.
Speaker:That's a long-winded one.
Speaker:That's true.
Speaker:Well, I've written books and we could write a book about that question.
Speaker:I think formally, the first thing is that they need to understand that
Speaker:there are formal guidelines out there.
Speaker:And if you have a look at the Media Entertainment Arts Alliance
Speaker:Ethics guidelines, I think that's the first port of call.
Speaker:But of course you're dealing with young musicians and the last thing they really
Speaker:want to do is read the ethics guideline.
Speaker:You have to ensure that there's an ethical environment that they work in,
Speaker:and that's critical for collaboration.
Speaker:There are a number of things that you need to keep in mind, and it's
Speaker:difficult when you know you've got 4 or 5 headstrong individuals in one group.
Speaker:There are little aphorisms that I think they're important.
Speaker:Like you need to praise in public and criticise in private.
Speaker:You know, that's just one thing.
Speaker:But part of your role is to ensure that this group stays together.
Speaker:And there are many ways for a group to fall apart.
Speaker:And I think the first thing to do is really just to set the standard yourself
Speaker:so that if you act in an ethical manner, that filters through to the rest of them.
Speaker:And basically they weed each other out as they go.
Speaker:And I think what I've found really interesting just lately is that
Speaker:the younger generation that I'm dealing with has a really good
Speaker:ethical attitude to the world.
Speaker:It's interesting to hear that you're saying that you are that level of
Speaker:keeping things in control, because I guess once success starts to happen
Speaker:for a group, it's very much, they just want a gig, they want to get the money.
Speaker:They see that sort of aspect, but your guidance and know that those
Speaker:things will eventually come, but we just need to stay on path.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:Well there's a psychological aspect to it that you need to embed in any
Speaker:group of individuals that are working together is to keep them grounded and
Speaker:to keep the egos at a stable level.
Speaker:Certainly in music, you need a great deal of ego to be on stage anyway or recording,
Speaker:but you also need to be very grounded.
Speaker:Music can be interpreted differently by composers, performers and audiences.
Speaker:How do you balance these perspectives when managing an artist's career?
Speaker:I had a look at this question earlier.
Speaker:I think it's impossible to govern interpretation.
Speaker:I think the best thing for a manager to do is to ensure
Speaker:that the musicians themselves.
Speaker:Are very comfortable with what it is that they're doing and I think the first thing
Speaker:that they need to do is satisfy themselves in terms of the music that they're
Speaker:producing and what it means to them.
Speaker:And I think that imbues a level of authenticity, certainly
Speaker:in recordings and on stage.
Speaker:An audience will tell very, very quickly whether you have an authentic
Speaker:approach or whatever, but it's not up to the musicians to govern what
Speaker:the interpretation of their music is.
Speaker:They can certainly frame it in certain ways, but in terms of the
Speaker:way that audiences interpret their music, well that's up to them and
Speaker:hopefully many of them will interpret in the way that the band intended.
Speaker:If you can't connect with an audience, then your career won't be very long.
Speaker:That's right.
Speaker:They've got to want to come back and listen to your again.
Speaker:How do you support artists when they adapt or arrange their music for
Speaker:different audiences or contexts?
Speaker:That's an interesting one.
Speaker:The area that I come from, which is primarily rock and roll and
Speaker:pop music, usually the arrangement is fixed as the recording.
Speaker:You know, it's a moment in time, and even when they're playing live, it's an
Speaker:attempt to reproduce that recorded work.
Speaker:It's not very often that they will rearrange it for particular audiences
Speaker:unless they'll go into a radio studio, and that's not a recording studio.
Speaker:It's not built to be a recording studio, but there's a live performance
Speaker:occurs along with the interview.
Speaker:Then they've got to start thinking about, well, what are the
Speaker:essentials of this particular song?
Speaker:And that really, in many ways is not a manager's responsibility,
Speaker:it's the musician's responsibility.
Speaker:But having been there myself, I can actually guide them as to what is the
Speaker:essential part of a song and you need to bring out in those circumstances,
Speaker:the melody and the vocal and the very basics of the arrangement.
Speaker:That's the classic saying, 'If you can do a song with you and the acoustic
Speaker:guitar and the song still goes over.
Speaker:It's a good song.
Speaker:The rest is embellishment.'
Speaker:That's a really great way of viewing the success of a piece.
Speaker:The lyrical aspects and all those elements within the song, the melodic shape and
Speaker:contour, they're really the things that people connect with and hook them in.
Speaker:Yeah, and the classic thing is, that it was Paul McCartney from The
Speaker:Beatles was always thrilled when he heard the postman whistling one
Speaker:of his tunes and he understood that the melody had got across to people.
Speaker:And it's the same thing when, you know, people start
Speaker:singing along with your songs.
Speaker:The chorus especially is the thing where that happens and it's in
Speaker:the name, you know, it's a choir.
Speaker:We want everybody to be singing.
Speaker:So yes, there are essentials there that needs us to stay.
Speaker:And then you've got to figure out, well, how can I situate this
Speaker:in a set of circumstances that really emphasise those things.
Speaker:Can you share how you handle the rights and intellectual property
Speaker:issues to protect both the artist and their work in these situations?
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I think this is a crucial thing that most musicians need to know about.
Speaker:So, the first thing that I will usually do, is I'll put
Speaker:a writer's agreement in place.
Speaker:A formal writer's agreement.
Speaker:This is about songwriting.
Speaker:Well, I'll go back.
Speaker:I'll go backwards.
Speaker:There are a number of rights that you're dealing with.
Speaker:One is the copyright, which is in the song.
Speaker:The other right is the mechanical rights which is in the recording.
Speaker:Which is the vessel that the song is carried in and it
Speaker:could be recorded differently, arranged differently, and so on.
Speaker:And then there are things like sync rights if you're lucky enough
Speaker:to have a portion of your song on TikTok or in a film or wherever.
Speaker:So, they need to understand the difference between those things.
Speaker:In terms of the copyright, the songwriting which songwriting
Speaker:royalties are derived from.
Speaker:I try to make sure that everyone in the band has some percentage
Speaker:of those songwriting royalties.
Speaker:I think the best deal there is to take at least maybe 50 to 75% to the people who
Speaker:actually write the lyric and the melody, and then allocate the rest, say 25%,
Speaker:split that four ways so that there are contributions and changes in the studio
Speaker:that are subtle from when it's arranged.
Speaker:And there may be slight changes to lyric or to a melody as a result of that, what
Speaker:that does is make sure that everybody gets a very similar set of incomes.
Speaker:One of the worst things that can happen is the songwriter, if there's a sole
Speaker:songwriter and a group of 4, their income starts to raise incredibly, exponentially
Speaker:in relation to the performance income.
Speaker:And then you get a disparity of wealth inside the band, and it's usually at
Speaker:that point that a band will split up.
Speaker:So, it's a crucial structural thing to have in place.
Speaker:As far as the mechanicals go, whoever pays for the recording owns the recording.
Speaker:If it's a record company, they will own the recording and
Speaker:you'll have to pay them off.
Speaker:So, they give you a loan.
Speaker:And this is important to understand as well.
Speaker:It's not like getting a house loan, where you own the house
Speaker:at the end of that payment.
Speaker:With a record company deal, it's usually they give you a loan to record.
Speaker:But they'll maintain the rights in the recording.
Speaker:So, you don't get to own the thing that you paid for.
Speaker:And so that's a crucial thing to understand as well.
Speaker:But if you're an independent band and say your recordings are
Speaker:paid for from your performance.
Speaker:Then you own the mechanical rights.
Speaker:So, those are two crucial things for them to understand right at the start.
Speaker:As far as operating, making those operational.
Speaker:They need to ensure that they are members of APRA, particularly, because there's
Speaker:an international agreement between APRA and say, ASCAP in the United States.
Speaker:I can't remember the acronym in the UK and Europe and so on, but they're all there.
Speaker:China, Indonesia, et cetera.
Speaker:Make sure that you're a member of APRA because the reciprocal exchange of
Speaker:royalties between the international world.
Speaker:And then you've got a file returns to APRA and so every time that
Speaker:you perform or play a song, the songwriter can claim income from APRA.
Speaker:So, you've just got to tally every time that you perform, every
Speaker:time a song is on radio, whether it's on Instagram or wherever.
Speaker:That needs to be tallied on a particular form that APRA will then process.
Speaker:And then in comparison to every other APRA member, you'll get a
Speaker:portion of the income that APRA has bought in from all sorts of sources.
Speaker:They need to understand that as well.
Speaker:So, there's a formal thing that they need to be doing.
Speaker:Often that'll fall to the manager, but if musicians are savvy about
Speaker:their business, and this is the thing, there are two parts to music industry.
Speaker:One is music and the other is industry.
Speaker:If you don't take care of both of them, your career won't last long either.
Speaker:There's so much going on in the background there, and I can see the
Speaker:importance of having someone who really knows the business, especially
Speaker:with a new band starting out.
Speaker:They could be really taken advantage of in some situations, especially if
Speaker:they're investing so much of their own money to try and establish themselves.
Speaker:There's a trending pattern at the moment for particularly labels, especially
Speaker:big labels, to run what they call 360 degree deals, because it was the case
Speaker:for a very long time that record labels would just derive their income from
Speaker:the mechanicals of the recordings.
Speaker:But the 360 degree deal says that they want a percentage of every piece
Speaker:of income that a musician will make.
Speaker:Whether it's merchandising, whether it's performance or anything else.
Speaker:So you've got to understand and be able to negotiate those things for your artists.
Speaker:We're up to our final question, which is what role do you play in helping
Speaker:artists evaluate their work and use feedback to refine their creative output?
Speaker:Well I would see that primarily as the role of a record producer, but if you are
Speaker:passionate about the songs, which you need to be as a manager and you're passionate
Speaker:about the performance as well then I think you have the right to have some input.
Speaker:I think that's crucially important, that you are absolutely honest
Speaker:with the musicians about what it is that they're producing.
Speaker:You are trying to get a balance between creativity and commerce for them.
Speaker:Some of them have a very romantic understanding of the way creativity works.
Speaker:You know, "Don't interfere with my creativity, man.", in inverted commas.
Speaker:You mentioned it in one of the prior questions that they've got to connect
Speaker:to an audience in some way or another if they're gonna sustain a career.
Speaker:So, they've got to have a balanced understanding of the relationship,
Speaker:and it's a tight relationship between creativity and commerce, or
Speaker:between music and their industry.
Speaker:So, part of your job as a manager is to ensure that they've got the best
Speaker:songs that they possibly could that are being recorded and promoted.
Speaker:That's essential.
Speaker:It's very hard to promote what's called a dog.
Speaker:If it's a good song, oftentimes it will promote itself and if you then can get
Speaker:particularly word of mouth happening, you know, to put all the other things in
Speaker:place, social media, Instagram, et cetera.
Speaker:So, as a manager, you also need a good set of ears as well as being respectful
Speaker:of your clients because they need to perform this almost every night at
Speaker:certain times when they're on tour.
Speaker:So, they still have to believe in what they're doing.
Speaker:But I think your job is to say, 'Well, you know, that's a little bit left the field',
Speaker:or 'That's too conservative', or whatever.
Speaker:You have some input into that and remember, of course, that a
Speaker:manager will often take around 20% of the entire income of the band.
Speaker:So if a manager wants to see their portion increase then it's down to the songs.
Speaker:Well, thanks so much for today.
Speaker:I really appreciate you coming in and talking about your
Speaker:experience and certainly from the perspective of a manager.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:My pleasure.
Speaker:This podcast was brought to you by the creative Arts team from
Speaker:Secondary Curriculum, the Curriculum Directorate of the New South
Speaker:Wales Department of Education.
Speaker:Get involved in the conversation by joining our statewide staff
Speaker:room through the link in the show notes or email Jane McDavitt at
Speaker:creativearts7-12@det.nsw.edu.au.
Speaker:The music for this podcast was composed by Creative Arts Advisor, Alex Manton.
