Bigger than the song - Emma Donovan

Bigger Than The Song: Emma Donovan - Transcript

Jane McDavitt

The following podcast is brought to you by the Creative Arts team from Secondary Curriculum, the Curriculum Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education.

Dominique Higgins

Yiradhu marang mayiny-galang, Yuwin-dhu Dominique Higgins

Balladhu Bangerang Wiradjuri Yinaa

Hi everyone, my name is Dominique Higgins.

I am a proud Bangerang Wiradjuri woman

Ngadhu banhi-gu gulbarra Dharug Ngurambang-ga nginha ngan-girra dhurinya gayi dhalang

I would like to acknowledge the Dharug nation on which I’m coming from today.

Ngadhu banhi-gu gulbarra Muyulung-galang maradhul-bu yaala-bu

I would like to acknowledge Elders past and present

Ngadhu banhi-gu gulbarra biyambul guwal Ngurambang-galang-bu

I would like to acknowledge all the lands you are coming from today and the Elders and Knowledge Holders who live, and have lived, on those Countries.

As I listen, I hear the vibrations of Country, sound echoing through time, carrying stories, over 65,000 years. With each breath I honour that air that carries song, Language, and the heartbeat of this land. I acknowledge our First Peoples, the custodians of this land, whose music, through voice, instrument and rhythm, has always been a way of knowing, being and doing. I listen with respect, knowing that this land, always was and always will be, Aboriginal Land.

Mandaan guwu wudha-garbinya

Thank you for listening.

Jackie King

Welcome to Creative Cast, the official podcast of the New South Wales Department of Education's Creative Arts Curriculum Team. My name is Jackie King and I'm a Creative Arts Curriculum Advisor and Music subject matter expert.

Dominique Higgins

And I'm Dominique Higgins. I'm a proud Bangerang Wiradjuri woman, in my role of Aboriginal Education Advisor with the Department of Education. Today we are lucky enough to be joined by award-winning Gumbaynggirr, and Yamatji and Noongar clans singer and songwriter Emma Donovan.

Emma has been touring the country for over 20 years performing soulful songs and sharing powerful stories with audiences around the globe. She regularly performs songs in  Gumbaynggirr and Noongar traditional Languages and shares stories to provide her audiences with an understanding of Country and community.

Jackie King

Emma has given permissions for her songs, ‘Mob March’ and ‘Warrell Creek Song’ to be included for study in the Stage 4 Unit, Bigger than the song. And today we'll discuss with her the stories, collaborations, permissions, and protocols for teachers and students to consider when engaging with her music.

Dominique Higgins

So, Yiradhu Marang Emma, gawambanha and mandaang guwu, thank you for joining us today.

Emma Donovan

Nah. Thank you. Thanks for having us. What an awesome podcast to be involved in, you know, there's been some really good relationships and connections to make this happen, you know, and we'll yarn a lot more about that. But, yeah, I want to you know, come to you’s and say that I'm visiting on Dharug Land, you know, and most of my music has been, you know, written, recorded down in Wurundjeri Country in Naarm, more recent, you know. So yeah, just acknowledgement to both, you know, them, beautiful lands and yeah. I'm here in Western Sydney actually, where, most of my family is, you know, connected up through the mid north coast, but mostly where I was brought up. Yeah.

Jackie King

Oh, thank you. It's really great to have you here with us today. Can we start the podcast today by you telling us a little bit about yourself and the role that music has played in your life?

Emma Donovan

Ah. I always tell people, you know, music got me out of a little bit of trouble, I reckon when I was young. I like to say that I was a good daughter, a family member growing up, going to school and doing all the little things. But, you know, it kind of always kept me on track, you know, and then more so songwriting for myself is, um, something I just hold so dear because it really does keep me, you know, sane and you know, all through my journeys of my life, I find myself always just going back to, to write, to continually heal, you know, for myself.

I'm a Mum of two little girls, so, you know, song writing's been around for such a long time, my grandparents sang, something that I, you know, want to leave and, and do for my family, for my two little ones. So, I take it very, you know, serious, especially because, most of my songwriting and storytelling comes from my family, which is a continuation of, you know, all the generations that we've told as Aboriginal People. So yeah, that's a little bit about myself. I just, I love music.

I love to sing. I grew up very musical family, so, where it's kind of led me has been just, you know, I'm always, you know, so humbled, I guess, to kind of be in this industry and, continue sharing song and, and story.

Jackie King

I wonder if, thinking back to when you were at school, do you remember learning any songs by Aboriginal artists at school?

Emma Donovan

I remember there was a couple of songs in Language, but it was never clear to me what Languages they were. You know, there was some songs and and just that floated around that had Language and I think there was some kind of, background of it being an Aboriginal song or an Indigenous song, but it wasn't clear what that song was. Um, it's a song that I later learned probably you know, through a band called Tiddas. It's kind of a little bit familiar now, but yeah, it's nothing like, the songs and the Language that's expressed today and you know, out there today.

Dominique Higgins

Absolutely. And I think that's what we're trying to really ensure happens in our schools as well, is that it's happening more and it's becoming part of the everyday conversation as well. It shouldn't be a, a shock that, we're now looking at an Aboriginal artist it should be what we do all the time anyway. And thank you to you that in this unit students will be learning the song ‘Mob march.’ So we'd just like to ask what role has music played in black activism, and who are some artists that have inspired you within this space?

Emma Donovan

So I mean, the artists that inspire me always have been, you know, our Aboriginal and songmen and women, and you know, a lot of people know my relationship with, some of the members of the Black Arm Band where I felt like I was in a band where I was in a longer, a lot more younger generation. So there was older people like, you know, George Burarrwanga from Warumpi Band and there was the late Uncle Arch and Aunty Ruby. I remember the first time I ever was in a band and played, you know, alongside, um, these artists. The first thing that came to my mind, 'cause I was ringing my dad and I was saying, ‘Dad, I'm here with, you know, I'm in the same room as Bart Willoughby, bands from like, No Fixed Address then Coloured Stone.’

Immediately I was just like, you know, these were the songs and these were the people that my father, you know, I grew up on all different kinds of music, but my father shared a lot of the black fella music for me. And so they were like people, like Uncle Bart Willoughby and Coloured Stone and stuff, so, they were like my very young influences. As I got older, I lent right into that, especially coming up in music industry, keeping myself around, Community and, you know, wanting to be a, a singer songwriter myself. That's when I was heavily listening then to our old people and still do today, and also find myself now just, you know, sometimes the genres or the things don't match, like the styles for me 'cause I'm a bit older now, but I'm just so inspired about the actually telling of the story that young Indigenous mob are writing. I'm just so, I'm so curious about what they wanna say, as Aboriginal mob, uh, Indigenous people from here, it is activism. It's a way of sharing, important stories. And so, a lot of that is in, you know, our music regardless of anything. You know, if you're a black fella, black music is black music, I think we just need to sum that up. If you identify as Aboriginal, we are music no matter what genre, no matter what you're saying is black music, and that's the biggest thing that I know.

It's funny that, you know, when you were telling the intro, then we're talking about, there's so many connections to songs and, you know, stories. I was travelling with, Jessie Lloyd, who's the daughter of Uncle Joey Geia, you know, who wrote the amazing song ‘Yil Lull', but I was on Mission Songs tour with her and yarning with her all the time about, you know, stories and the way we share our songs and the biggest line I learned from her was ‘big yarn, small song’. So, we're gonna get a lot of that today. Yeah.

Dominique Higgins

I love that. And we've had some yarns with Jessie Lloyd as well recently, which has been incredible as well.

Emma Donovan

I'm inspired by her, Jessie's amazing. I just think what she does and you know, connecting everyone. And sharing. Anyway, we'll get into that later.

Dominique Higgins

Yeah, you mentioned in that, you know, the stories behind the songs and how there's, they're the powerful thing as well, right? So, could you talk to us about the story behind ‘Mob March’?

Emma Donovan

It was a song written a while back now, so I'm just like, wow. I wrote that with the Putbacks. Lyrically, I always wanted to write a song about Marching. You know, I'm inspired by, I've been singing and I, you know, was listening to, you know, heavily always listening to, you know, Mavis Staples. She's got that song, ‘Freedom Highway’, you know, with the Staple Singers. So, I was always, I was always putting myself there, going I wanna write a song about marching. And also, I've seen a lot of things about Black History Month, with the mob in New Orleans, how these mob just go to the streets. They just march and they, you know, big songs, and I always, you know, wanted to write a song about just taken to the streets, but also how proud I am of mob showing up for us, and not just black fellas, all our allies, all our, you know, people that don't identify as Aboriginal in this Country, that we need that to strengthen that relationship always. You know, you see where it's, you know, evident or obvious when these people are walking alongside us. And if you've ever been in a march, it's amazing feeling. I was marching this year, best time my life this year. I felt like, wow, NAIDOC, I'm, you know, I was marching and just the feeling of it, you know, I wanted to write it.

So, yeah, that our mob we've been doing when we trying to get that message. And I think the other thing too is, on these platforms, like, you know, having podcasts, having social media and all of that. You know, we're not doing it alone anymore in Communities when there's injustices in places like Yuendumu or any remote part of Australia, our mob know how to, they know how to show up in big cities now. It's not, we're not sitting quiet anymore and yeah, I needed to write ‘Mob March.’

Dominique Higgins

Absolutely. And that is, it's so powerful, and you mentioned then having, having those allies with us and, and march with us. How do you feel when, and what's the impact of having, you know, allies sing slogans along with us? Like always was, always will be and other chants that, that are included in your song, how, what's the impact of that?

Emma Donovan

I just always, you know, hoping for, I suppose when I've, what I've got in mind at the time when I'm writing tunes like that is that just for everyone to connect black and white and mostly our mob, to strengthen our mob, you know, that they can have a song like that that will be around, you know, for them you know, always have that, connect and help strengthen their identity as, you know, as Aboriginal People.

Jackie King

The other song that is in this unit of work, that students will also be listening to is the ‘Warrell Creek’ song, and they're going to compare some different versions of you singing that song. Can you tell us a bit about your personal connection to that song and what it means to you?

Emma Donovan

‘Warrell Creek’ wasn't a song I grew up with. I didn't have the privilege of, I had the privilege of hearing some Language, but I'm a generation away from Language being very fluent in my family. So, my mother would've heard Old Granny Ballengarry and some of her Nanas speak fluent. Same as my gran, same as my Dad.

It kind of, by the time I was around, you know, a lot of it was lost or you know, at the point where it wasn't spoken. But our Communities have been, you know, bringing it back a life and that's a huge part of, you know, my growth, you know, as a songwriter, making sure that I contribute to continue to keep Language strong in my Communities. I know for a fact now when I do write songs and it has that tiniest bit of Language in it, that the song, you know, it becomes not mine, it becomes the Community, and it, it becomes anybody that's connected to that mob and region, you know, they can hear that and also be influenced by that.

A song like ‘Warrell Creek’, like I said, didn't hear that song. I actually heard the recording of it, and I heard the, and I seen the translations and the recording of that come out of our Aboriginal Language centre in Nambucca Heads called Muurrbay. There was actually various recordings of it and I was sharing, with some of your stuff there that, you know, my version of it was my grandmother, Granny Ballengarry.

Now this day and age, she's like, great, great, great grandmother to, you know, massive clan. There's lots of other people in my Community that claim us. Had to be very careful about using that particular song or singing it and reimagining it or, you know, sharing it. When I heard it, I heard my nana sing it, I heard another man from the Nambucca Valley sing it as well, and then I heard another voice sing it, but I didn't know, they couldn't identify who sung, you know that version. So, I heard three versions of, of ‘Warrell Creek’, on recordings. And, you know, this is what Muurrbay was doing to preserve that old song and the meaning and you know, sharing the knowledge of it.

So then I thought to myself, that's how song should be in our family. Like my grandfather wrote us old song and it's called ‘Promised Land’. And you know, it's a similar thing that's happening now. You know, there should be three versions of that song. Should be my version, you know, I've got my cousin Casey, she should do a version of that song. You know, I think this is how I'm, I'm thinking, I don't wanna confuse you too much, but what I'm trying to say I guess is, I wanted to do my version of the song ‘Warrell Creek’, and I want it to be an honour and respect it.

What I did do at the time was I went to the Putbacks and I was like; this is the melody that Granny Ballengarry sings. I know the Language, I've learned this Language. Let's do a Putback Soul version of it. So, I changed a bit of the melody. I'll be honest in telling you’s, is that some of my Community didn't agree with that. I actually had some people in the Community that, you know, voiced their opinion to me and told me, ‘Sis that's not cool.’ And this is the things that happen. You know, we should talk about, not to say I'm not proud of it, but you know, I understood, I understood why, you know, she thought, you know, this particular person in my Community thought it wasn't cool. The other reason I'm bringing it up is because that should be a way to preserve it and I look at it different. I look at it like there's the traditional, there's that traditional melody that was known. We can continue that and I do, you know, in my time as a musician and artist, I do share that melody sometimes, but I just thought I'll share that story and I'll share that in a contemporary kind of way or soulful way that the way that I know how to, you know, create music, which is honest to me and what I am learning in my whole, you know, music journey.

ersions of it, but here was a: 2021

Dominique Higgins

Yeah.

Emma Donovan

ion of it, you know, from the: 1900

Dominique Higgins

That's so beautiful, Emma. I love how you've said that and frame that, that it should continue and, and that it shouldn't just be one version of it and, and to share your story behind that is really powerful. You mentioned the relationship with the Putbacks so I guess how, can you kind of give your perspective on how non-indigenous people can collaborate respectfully with Aboriginal artists and with Communities, and what helps build that trust, to create a collaboration like this?

Emma Donovan

Oh, relationship, definitely relationship. That's the number one thing. Like you have to go out and find these, you know, mob and start them relationships and the world's your oyster once you do, you know. You'd be surprised what can come out of, honouring songs like that and stories like that.

Yeah. Where do we start, you know? There's Black Fellas have, you know, songs like, you know, my songs, these are particular songs like ‘Warrell Creek’. There are only a handful of songs. I don't have access, or I don't, you know, my people haven't had that cultural side of, you know, music and songs, continued. We're continuing it now and you know, while we've preserved the Language, people now have this other, you know, there's that tool now of, okay, we've got the Language, now we can continue writing songs in Language. But you know, there might be some of the songs still left and then there's some, now that we, you know, like songs like ‘Mob March’ now or, you know, that are gonna continue there might not be in Language, but there's still story.

Dominique Higgins

Yeah, I think that's what it comes down to - a lot of the, messaging we're sharing as well is that it is relationships that, you know, that's, that's everything.

Emma Donovan

You have to go out and ask. You have to, you know, and respectfully ask, of course, you know, and be aware that, you know, yeah, there's Languages all over this country. Some people are reviving Languages, some people are reviving stories the same as they are with dance, and also there's interpretation of what Mob know, you know, as their story, you know, and how they wanna share, uh, and continue sharing. Yeah, but it's definitely a relationship and, you know, if schools or teachers or students you know, have that interest in Indigenous music, yeah, it's the approach, I guess, and how they wanna connect and how far they, it's like anything, if you know you wanna connect with that song and story and space, you're gonna go and do it, you know, respectfully.

Jackie King

I think that's a really nice segue into our next question that we've got for you, which is obviously when you’re releasing songs and new albums, the purpose for doing so isn't generally linked to sharing music in a, a music classroom, or for the music to be studied. So we're just wondering what your thoughts are on teachers or students, learning or covering your songs and the way in which they should, seek permissions to do so.

Emma Donovan

Yeah, me personally, I get a real, you know, I'm very honoured and thrilled always, that someone wants to learn my song. Like, the amount of times I get approached, it's like, you know, it's a huge honour for me. Um, I think, you know, the more them connections happen, the better. Like people get a better understanding, you know, of what we are writing, what we're sharing, what we're putting out there in this world. You know, I think that's the biggest thing that I love, is that someone has taken that interest to wanna learn you know, something about my song and that's just personally. You know, I know it does happen and it's always the odd, you know, student or or teacher that wanna share and, you know, like we are, you know, doing in this podcast sharing, um, and you know, with you sharing, particular songs and yeah, it's, it's pretty, pretty cool.

Jackie King

I guess in, in thinking about that in, in opening, up and the, the students being able to learn your songs in the classroom, are there any sort of extra protocols or, or ethical choices or things that they need to think about, that need to be applied to a song such as ‘Warrell Creek’, for instance, is it appropriate for students all across New South Wales to potentially sing this song in their classes? Or are they maybe best to learn the instrumental line or the story behind it? What are your thoughts on that?

Emma Donovan

Hmm. I think that, you know, the artist, like someone like myself, you know, I wouldn't put it out there if I didn't want anybody to learn it. I wouldn't put it out there if I, didn't think it was special enough for somebody to learn or wanna share. That's just me. I think you should double check in on, on that though always if you, if you are, wanting to share it or, you know, have it in a program or have it, you know, as a part of a choir or something like that. There's always that like, just to double check and ask. Majority of the artists that I do know and I can't talk for everyone, you know, speak for everyone. Which does lead me to say just double check and always ask and you know, it is about that, um, seeking, you know, just education, trying to find out the history around it. Um, you know, where it is from, what local group is it, you know, there's so many people connected. If you know, there's one particular song, like I said, this song, ‘Warrell Creek’. I feel like I'm this tiny little person connected to it. It's connected to so many people. It's connected to a Community, it's connected to generations. So yeah, they've, you know, gotta find the right people and that'll, that's where it'll take you on that journey to, you know, a lot of communities have their own protocols and a lot of communities have their own kind of ways.

You know, they, even have politics, you know, around certain tunes as well. Oh, you know, that family used to sing that song, but oh, you know, blah blah, such and such wrote it. Also, it could have to do with who the song's written about could be written about a certain person that you know isn't from that clan or has passed, or, you know, there's all of them questions that come, you know, with it.

And it's just finding out, you know, Mob will let you know who's in charge of the tune, trust me. And they'll tell you where to go when they're not in charge of it, you know, or have that ownership of it and it's the same like kinship and the way we connect to our bodies and our people. When someone passes, we know who's, you know, rightfully the caretaker or the person connected to that person that's passed. So, you're gonna go around and find out what are the best ways to honour that person now that they're passed?

Similar to a song, really? You know, similar to a song. You gotta check, you gotta check in who, who's got that right now to that tune and, yeah, how to go about finding out how to, you know, rerecord it or, you know, it's funny, like I was talking about the younger generation. You know, before and recently in NAIDOC, I heard the Jessica Mauboy, um, tune the reinterpretation of a song called, you know, ‘The World Is Turning’ by Yothu Yindi. That song was written by a man that's passed now. He's from a certain community. I'm sure Jess would've went through the right protocols, she would've went to someone of, you know, finding out who's in charge there now of that tune and, you know, wanting to put her, her version of it or her spin on it. It's a continuation now 'cause it shows another light to it, similar to me with ‘Warrell Creek’. It shows another light, it shows another, interpretation of it, it shows that it still exists, that it still has that journey. It's gonna have longer journey now, you know, in five years to come. Who's to say, the next, you know, group or, Indigenous artists out there, you know, shouldn't cover or reinterpret a song like that. You know, that's the power and beauty of it.

Dominique Higgins

Absolutely.

Emma Donovan

I think the more that that happens in these spaces. And, you know, that's our people telling our people's songs. So, the more that this happens in, the wider community, meaning non-indigenous mob interpreting songs like, you know, ‘World is Turning’, or ‘Warrell Creek’. Ah, wouldn't it be, you know, isn't, this is what we are looking for? Isn't this what we're, you know, trying to bridge these gaps? This is the way, this is, music is the key. You know, it sounds, you know, cliche, but it's true.

Dominique Higgins

Yeah.

Emma Donovan

You know, these are, these are the relationships that we need to have. As you know, there's a black fella Community, but once you have that kind of way in especially at, you know, meeting place like songs like, you know, ‘World is Turning’, can you imagine if another non-indigenous artist, yeah, recorded that, that would even be more powerful, wouldn't it? Just as powerful.

Dominique Higgins

I think, Emma, that's, that's exactly what we're trying to do here and, and within education has such a powerful opportunity to be able to do that in our classrooms with our kids. So thank you so much for sharing all of your stories today. Our last question kind of leads off on what you were just saying, and you did touch on it before too, but I guess, how important is it for teachers to include Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander music in schools?

Emma Donovan

Definitely have, you know, definitely want to, would love, you know, more teachers and that to, to share that. I remember when I was with the Black Arm Band, I dunno if too many people know about the Black Arm Band, but, it was a big collaboration of, you know, a lot of Indigenous artists, but also the core like kind of Melbourne jazz ensemble players and people, and what Black Arm Band, what the agenda was, you know, on, on the meeting terms of this collaboration, was that there was no black music written in scores. Like there was no, if you wanted to get, you know, orchestras to play, there was no scores written, you know, with the, with with tunes like ‘Island Home’, all the big kind of songs that have shaped, you know, black fella, like the songbook of, you know, black music. There was no, yeah, there was no music, , there was no scores written, for it. So that was the kind of agenda, that was the thing that led that band and made them relationships happen and made to, you know, music and productions and all the rest come out of it. That was like, you know, one of the reasons why that band kind of you know, worked. It worked because you know, these mob or black fellas telling black fella story, they came together, with non-indigenous, you know, mob and they, you know, there was this huge collaboration similar to me, like in the Putbacks was a similar, like a, it was an extension of that 'cause I met the rhythm section from the Black Arm Band. You know, it ended up being the Putbacks so it was a, was a relationship that continued, but it had longevity. Like it was, you know, over 20 years of all of us, you know, playing together.

Dominique Higgins

Do you have any emerging black artists that you would recommend for our teachers to check out?

Emma Donovan

Oh, look, you can't keep up these days with, the amount you know of, Indigenous artists that are out there. You know, I feel like I've missed them. It's amazing because there's so many. Pretty much incredible, festival producers. That's the other thing too, black fella music. It's up there in a lot of the festivals now. Like these producers and people that are programming, well, we have our own black programmers, you know, so they're putting music like that at the front forefront of a lot of festivals now. So you only have to just, again, do your homework, and find out who's there.

I feel like, when I first started there, there wasn't even a lot of women, Aboriginal women that sang the, the generations of it was so far between. There was like Auntie Ruby, you know, and then there was Tiddas. That was another generation. Then there was like Christine and Shakaya and, along comes like Jessica Mauboy and then myself, you know?

Whereas now, oh my goodness, there's, yeah, if you want me to name a few, I would right now. And that would be Bumpy, you know, Noongar, woman based in, Naarm, Kee'ahn who's Kuku Yalanji Torres Strait Islander, you know, women, um, Emily Wurramara, Thelma Plum. There's, you know, I would just rattle off the top, of my head now for Aboriginal women, but I don't think you could have did that, you know, years ago.

But yeah, going back to that collaboration, I remember what I was trying to say now, going back to the collaboration thing of, you know, the Black Arm Band, that whole conversation about needing more black fella music to cross over, and it crossed over a certain genre which was the, you know, the jazz ensemble or the classical theatre style. That was the conversation there that made that whole, company burst which was the need for black music to be in them spaces, you know? So, of course, I guess answering your question, again, going back to, you know, why wouldn't you know students or teachers, you know, get involved in continuing black fella music? We definitely do. We definitely need to do that. You know, make this place better. Strengthen relationships. And, you know, understand that a lot of the times Aboriginal mob, when we are writing, a lot of the things that we're, you know, like a song like Mob ‘March’, you know, this is our opportunity to rewrite history, rewrite history in this Country. So the reason why a lot of, you know, mob, use music as a outlet, and it's because, we haven't over the years, haven't had that opportunity to tell our story as Aboriginal people and we are now. And so this is the reason why, them relationships need to continue.

Yeah, hit up as many indigenous, you know, musicians and songwriters, storytellers as you can, be involved. Um, what do I always say? Tune in.

Jackie King

Oh, that is, fantastic, Emma, thank you for coming along and sharing your stories with us today, and also thank you for working with us and giving the permissions for students to be able to engage with your songs, ‘Warrell Creek’ and, and ‘Mob March’ and obviously giving that background story to those songs today and, and just giving teachers and students a little bit more to think about when they do engage with those songs, I think is so very important.

Emma Donovan

I appreciate that and you know, let's also acknowledge that sometimes you might not get the permission too. You know, there might be certain songs that you know clans and communities wanna hold on. You know, there's some that might not be so generous, you know, let's keep that in mind and there might be a reason for it. It's got nothing to do with what you are trying to do. We shouldn't be offended about it. It's more to do that, you know, there's another, you know, there's another journey or there's another, it's a fitted time for it or purpose for it, to stay within Community or stay within, you know, certain families.

I can't always talk for, on behalf of, you know, everyone, you know? That's the other thing too, I think with, you know, indigenous music and when we're putting things out there. Not one black fella talks for every black fella. You know, we have to go and, yeah. Check in. I'll leave it there.

Jackie King

An incredible part of our learning, actually, but yeah, thank you for sharing your stories with us today.

Emma Donovan

No worries. Absolutely. Yeah, means a lot for me, you know, to always, like I said, that's my contribution and way that I, you know, I want to connect people. Yeah. All of us.

 Jane McDavitt

This podcast was brought to you by the Creative Arts team from secondary curriculum, the Curriculum Directorate of the New South Wales Department of Education.

Get involved in the conversation by joining our statewide staff room through the link in the show notes or email Jane McDavitt at Creative Arts 7-12@det.nsw.edu.au. I would like to acknowledge the beautiful yidiki sounds of the start were from Whitebridge High School on Awabakal Country by proud Aboriginal students, Oslo Harradine, Renni Chapman and Zeb Short. The theme music for this podcast was composed by Creative Arts Advisor, Alex Manton.